We need to remember that when Jesus broke the bread, symbolizing His body, He wasn’t eating His own body w/ His disciples. It was in remembrance of what He was about to do for us. It didn’t contain His actual body as some blashphemously proclaim. Same goes for His blood.
Jesus is the door and He explained what that meant—-that He is the only Way to be reconciled back to the Father.
Baptism also is symbolic, or else the water would be how our sins are actually forgiven, rather than Jesus’ blood shed on the cross. The book of Acts makes it clear over and over again that one could only take action and be baptized if they had already been regenerated and empowered by the Holy Spirit to do so. Any other view leads to believing our works save us, rather than God’s pure grace thru faith in Jesus alone.
All are summonsed to repent and believe, not because all have the ability to do so, but because those who were preordained before time began—-will respond to the universal call of the Gospel, because God has given them the ability to do so. This all glorifies God, reminding us that salvation is of His mercy alone toward those He has chosen to show mercy (Rom.9). And He chose us before we could have had anything to do with it!!! Wow, mind boggling isn’t it!! Praise Him!!!
Christ Rescued Me! 
All have the ability to repent. To suggest otherwise is blasphemy. God ‘Does not wish that any perish.’ And any means any. You must realize God’s will is not always done on earth. That is why we pray “Let your will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.”
When God says “I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy,” He also says that “He does not wish that any should perish.” I think that God is telling us that He has two options, and He tell us the one He chose in Jn 3:16 “For God so loved the world…” God gives everyone the ability to repent, which is why He asks them to, but not everyone will accept that gift because doing so suggests we cannot do it on our own.
2 Tim. 2:25 says God grants repentance. But obviously He doesn’t grant it to everyone, for not everyone repents. Same goes for “God does not wish that any should perish”—-God never has wishes that don’t come true. ANY who are His will never perish, for He has wished (willed) that they will not perish—-ever.
Now let me ask this question—-why are there those who perish? Did God’s purpose in sending His Son to save the lost sheep not become fulfilled? Of course it did—Jesus says in John 17:12 and John 18:9 — in His prayer on earth to the Father—- that He has lost none of those whom the Father has given Him. So it goes to reason that those who perish are not sheep but goats so to speak.
I know this is deep, but isn’t this beautiful to you Chijindu? I pray that if not yet, it will be to you soon. Be blessed.
“It didn’t contain His actual body as some blashphemously proclaim.”
then i guess Jesus Himself blasphemed, for He said “THIS IS my body, take and eat”. not just contains, but *is*. 🙂
So you believe Jesus had two bodies?—-the one He was living in AND the one in the bread?
NO. It isn’t. The prayer was for His disciples, even He said He had lost the Son of perdition. In the prayer for us, He said, “and I pray for those who will believe as a result of the testimony of these ones”…not “those who you will give me as a result of the testimony of these ones.” Suggesting that the ball was in our court. The beauty in the death of Christ was that He risked everything for people who might not accept Him.
Also, Communion aside, when you think of it, Jesus had two bodies: His Physical body, and the church.
I think communion is something to do with fellowship. I do not really understand it, but I believe Jesus when he said that it was His body. Wasn’t it Jesus that said I am the bread come down from heaven.
Seeking to understand everything at once is like trying to fit an ocean into a cup. Eventually, in my walk with God, God will reveal it to me, just as he has revealed other things.
I’m very impressed—–I wondered if you’d bring up these verses om the Lords prayer!!! You are a challenge, but it helps me to grow.
Yes, Jesus was praying about His disciples, but “not for them only”—-remember?
And yes—-Judas was given to Jesus—-but for what purpose? This is huge!!! —– So that “scripture would be fulfilled” because God’s Word is set in stone. God had never purposed to save him. Judas was chosen as a “vessel of destruction”—scary I know, but it’s true.
As for—-“those who will believe their testimony”—–proof the Apostles words are equated as Jesus’ very words to us. Some say they were only human so we should just believe Jesus’ words. But their words to us are inspired of God Himself!
Sorry if I got off track there—-anyway—-When God purposes to save His elect, it is set in stone. When He predetermines that others will perish for their sin, it is set in stone. His will—will be done—-no matter what, because He is God.
And yes—–Jesus is the true manna from heaven, not manna that perishes, but is everlasting!!! Those who partake of His death, will never hunger or thirst again. Glory!!!
And you are right Chijindu—-we will all understand by and by and farther along. I look forward to it—-don’t you?
two bodies? nope. but very much present at the time — hardly absent from the supper. in fact the bread and wine were in His very hands.
also, is Jesus not God? of course. then He is omnipresent and is anywhere He wants to be… including in the bread and wine.
Definition of Pantheism: The heretical belief that God is in everything and in everyone; a belief in all Deities being “God”—–The belief that God and the material world are one and the same.
Definition of Omnipresence: God’s presence is everywhere;—-BUT bread and rocks and trees (material matter) are His creation, they are not God Himself. He is present on earth thru the Holy Spirit, but God Himself resides in heaven.
Jesus prayed: “Our Father WHO ART IN HEAVEN”
Definition of PANENtheism: Heretical belief that God is IN all things. The belief that God is personal AND is also in all of creation.
Panentheism ultimately leads to a universal view that God is in all people and that all will be saved.
Which is probably why so many liberal churches are ecumenical…..because their theology has strayed off the straight and narrow, giving heed to “doctrines of demons.”
Also why so many of us ended up in extremist cults and will again if we do not get our theology correct according to God’s Word—-IN CONTEXT that is.
Remember that God never erodes our free will. There’s a king that God promised to punish severely. But when the king heard about it, he changed his ways and repented. and God delayed the punishment to his son’s reign. i can’t remember the king’s name though.
It’s hard to accept but God’s will isn’t always done on earth, unlike in heaven. If it were, Jesus wouldn’t have said that let his will be done on earth. How many times has the holy spirit asked you to do something, and you refused? Are you blaming God for your refusal? If you remain a hypocrite and go to hell, can you tell God that He didn’t predestine you, therefore, you couldn’t serve Him? When ever, we tink of something new, or get a revelation, let us also think of its practical implications. John says in the beginning of His revelation ‘blessed are those who do…’ which means it has a practical use.
If those that will be saved is set in stone, then those who are not saved have an excuse, because God is just. If they have an excuse, God will be hogtied, because He said that every mouth will be stopped in that day.
As powerful as God is, He never breaks the rules that He has set.
One of those is whatever you sow, you will reap. emphasis on the will, which means it is a conscious decision, not one hoisted on you by God.
I think we are both correct, and the balance in somewhere in between, because if you say that God doesn’t preordain those who will be saved, then, we make it sound like we have done something, or play a major role in the salvation game. It then sounds like God is biting His nails in anxiety whether we will choose him or the devil, which of course is absolute nonsense. But if you say that God has preordained those who will be saved, you take away the free will of man, without which God does not work with any man.
The truth is somewhere in the middle, and as with many things in christianity, too awesome to wrap our tiny minds around.
PS. Pray for us in Nigeria. Boko Haram is treatning to massacre christians and southerners in the northern part of Nigeria. you can google more about the crisis, or check my facebook page.
Chijindu, I will certainly pray about that situation, as I never turn down a prayer request.
But Chijindu, really think about what you said above,—– “God does not break the rules that He has set”—- That almost sounds like Deism.
Deism is a false belief that God has set all things in motion and is now sitting back as an observer, as He now expects us to govern the laws He has set in motion. This belief puts us in the drivers seat, while God remains a passive observer w/ His hands tied by His own decision.
This is one thing this site is about—–exposing the false teachings of the Word of Faith and other cults and Deism is one of their favorite heresies so that they can put a yoke of bondage on their followers—–
Now w/ that said, God never, ever, ever breaks a promise He has made. The blood covenant was a promise——unbreakable—–obtained by Jesus’ dying on the cross, shedding His blood to DEFINITELY atone for the sins of His sheep…..for our surety. It’s Immutable Heb. 6—-
It was NOT a hypothetical atonement for any who would have Him.
Remember Rom. 9: 16, “it is not of him who wills, nor of him wbho runs, but God who shows mercy”—-vs. 20 “who are we to reply against God, Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?”———–Our ONLYanswer to that question is—————
“because it pleased God” Gal. 1:15 That should be enough—right?
But our flesh wants a “better” reason—but He knows best.
The beatitudes show how blessed are those He has chosen to serve Him and what great works they will do—–because “it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure” Phil. 2:13
I’ve given a lot of thought and prayer to this subject we are discussing, and I think the Holy Spirit has told me only one thing: Is Jesus a lamb, or a lion? Is He a man, or is He God? Is He a man, God, a lamb, or a lion? These questions have helped me realize that the truth is not somewhere in between, but the truth is both of our stances. If it is somewhere in between, the Jesus would be a Lamion, a combination between Lion and lamb, but He is not. He is both at the same time.
You cannot say that my view is incorrect, and neither can I say the same as yours.
However, every gospel truth has a ‘therefore’ attached to it. For example, we know that Jesus is God, so we worship Him, we Adore Him; we know He is man so we can follow Him. I know that those he foreknew in His Sovereignty, He predestined, not to be saved or not, but that when they were saved, they were to become like His son, and that God’s will isn’t always done on earth, so I try to evangelize. If God Has chosen us from the foundations of the world, which I believe is true, then the application is that we cannot boast of our salvation. The reason I countered you presentation is very simple. 90% of the people that read it probably won’t know, and it will confuse them. There had to be a counter weight, one that you would not have introduced if I kept quiet.
The reason God never breaks a promise He has made is quite simple. In fact, it is the same reason He did not intervene in the garden when Eve was tempted. It is because God is faithful. Haven’t you read where it say in psalms, that a righteous man keep his word even to his detriment? If God is righteous, then He keeps His word. I think there is a place in Isaiah where He says that His word will ALWAYS accomplish it purpose. To say that God may sometimes waive His word is to accuse Him of dishonesty and unfaithfulness.
And God is not a passive observer. If He were, creation would fall apart. Try to keep from words like deism and pan***. Big words like that confuse everyone. The gospel is simple, plain, easy to understand. Once it gets complicated, it isn’t the gospel anymore.
When You hear a theory, check the scripture to see not only if it is correct, but if it in harmony with the rest of what scripture says. Then check for the application. The converts on the day of Pentecost said ‘What shall we do?…’ a question we MUST always ask. If what you should do is not in line with what Jesus did, or what the apostles did, it is probably wrong.
Extend that prayer, and get as many people as possible to pray it to. Pray that God will pierce the spiritual darkness over the young people of today. You pray for those in Your country, and I will pray for those in mine.
Chijindu, the reason I give definitions is to teach, so others can learn and so they won’t be confused. But also so they cannot use ignorance as an excuse. People need to know these things.
True, the gospel is simple, but people get into some pretty freaky and complicated things, and they need to know what they are buying into when they get into this stuff. Someone has to literally spell it out for them sometimes, but always in a spirit of gentleness, hoping that God will possibly grant them repentance.
And you’re right —-“God’s word will ALWAYS accomplish it’s purpose”—think about that statement.
What did God purpose when He sent His son to die for those He gave to Christ —-to save them?——–to accomplish a CERTAIN end—-the definite salvation of His sheep. Did not God have the end in mind before the beginning?
We cannot both be right about this——or else Christ on one hand would allow many He died for to end up in hell—-refusing to interceed for them and failing in His purpose—–
whereas on the other hand He definitely secured the salvation of those His atonement was intended for—-seeing He saves them to the uttermost for He interceeds for them so that all He accomplished on the cross would actually be applied to them. Heb 7:25
You must admit, there could be no possible security in a salvation you can lose. What kind of hope would that be??
Prov. 13: 11-13 “Hope deferred maketh the heart sick”
I’m still pursuing God on this matter—-asking Him every possible question—-believe me—–if I’m wrong I want to know. But His word continues to confirm to me that this is something we really need to look at more closely to get a more clear view of what God is trying to show us. Keep me in prayer as I will you also. God bless.
I am still convinced that we are both saying the different sides of the same coin. The Bible says that God is impartial. That means He gives the same opportunity to all. He says that He stands at the door and knocks.
That is why I said that this is like a door. When you are outside, you see ‘Behold I stand at the door of your heart and knock. If you open unto me…’ or ‘ Come to me all you who are heavy burdened,’ and when you enter the door, you see that ‘God chose you before you chose Him.’
Even that choosing is defined because the Bible says that God loved us before we loved Him in that He sent His son to die for us while we were yet sinners. It says that The Lamb was slain before the foundations of the earth. Does that mean that Adam and Eve were destined to sin? If so, then why did God punish them? If not, then does this mean that we are not living in the perfect will of God?
It seems that you have grasped the first truth that God ordained us from the foundations of the world, but you haven’t grasped the second that He will by no means cast away any that comes to Him, and that when you hear his voice, do not harden your heart. You must grasp these two truths to be a complete christian. The first truth is that God has chosen us from the foundations of the world (Rom explains this in detail). The second is that God sent Jesus to die for the world Jn 3:16 and that WHOSOEVER believes will not perish, which means the choice is still ours.
Don’t forget that Paul was writing to us when He said that ‘It is God that works in us both to will and to do.’
I remain convinced that they are different sides of the same coin.
I hope you realize that what this means is that I am saying that you are correct, but do not have a full grasp of the situation. You will always find scripture that supports you because you are correct, but you will also find scripture supports me as well, because I am correct, because we are both correct, and because you need to accept that even as I have as before this discussion, I never really had a full grasp until this discussion.
BTW, what is your name?
Chijindu, I want to at least commend you on being brave enough to look into this very touchy subject. As you can see, most want to avoid it like the plague—-some out of fear, some because of hidden sin, and some for many other reasons. For me, it used to be all the above.
Anyway, you are right about the supposed paradox of mans freewill vs. the Sovereignty of God, which are like two parallel lines that will probably never completely converge in our limited minds until we are face to face with Him in heaven.
However, I do believe the dilemma of universal atonement vs. limited atonement can be resolved in the here and now, due to the overwhelming evidence in God’s word.
On the same hand, I believe that once this is resolved in our mind, our faith will be strengthened to the point that our reason will be at rest in God and we will at least be able to better understand His Sovereignty vs. our freewill.
I will be putting up a couple of new posts this week (God willing) to hopefully make this more clear. Let’s prepare for the challenge!! Hope you’ll be blessed by it and I pray that God will “perfect what may be lacking in your faith” 1 Thess. 3:10
BTW: My name is Lee Anne